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?We are not fixing the IIT system. We are fixing an aberration that has children sitting for 30 different exams?

Over the years, we have taken substantive steps both in the education and telecom sectors. In education, the school sector has seen the beginning of an enormous reform.

In this Idea Exchange moderated by Pranab Dhal Samanta of The Indian Express, HRD and telecom minister Kapil Sibal speaks about the reforms in the education sector, the move towards a single exam for entry into engineering colleges and the investment sentiment in the country

Kapil Sibal: Over the years, we have taken substantive steps both in the education and telecom sectors. In education, the school sector has seen the beginning of an enormous reform. In the higher education sector, we are trying to get the semester system. That is the only way we can give mobility to our children. Let me now come to the IIT system. If two-and-a-half years of consultation is not enough, then I would like to know how long should we consult before we bring about reforms? Remember, to have a single test was part of the education policy of 1986. What are the four issues we are concerned with? One, that children should not be made to sit for 20 to 30 tests to get into any institution of higher education. The second point is that girls are the best performers in the school system, yet, no girl student finds herself in the IITs. Why? Because girls are not sent to Kota. Our third concern is that this has become urban-centric. I?ll give you studies done by an IIT professor in Mumbai, a 2006 study, which says that of the 476 seats in IIT, 300 are from the coaching industry. The most important of all, and this is also part of that study, is that children don?t bother about their class 12 boards. After class 10, they go to Kota or Hyderabad or wherever, and start preparing. And most of them don?t get into IIT and they don?t do well in their boards either so they can?t get an appropriate course. They lose a lot of self-esteem in the process. This is damaging the youth of this country. These were concerns which were raised by the IIT council back in February 2010 and we then set up several committees?an Acharya committee, a Ramaswamy committee. For autonomy of IITs, we set up a Kakodkar committee. Then we involved the Indian Statistical Institute because there are different boards in the country, how do we normalise the scores of various boards? Dr T Ramaswamy and various other people went in batches to IITs, discussions took place, all this was put up on the website. Then ultimately, we came to the conclusion that the best way forward is to give weightage to schools and we have a 40-30-30 formula: 40% for school boards, 30% for the main exam and 30% for the advanced exam. The school boards will get an advantage because anybody getting 89% will be equalised on a percentile basis over someone who gets a 57% in another board. The IIT senates and faculty objected to this decision and they said there has not been enough consultation. I called a meeting at Vigyan Bhawan this year and asked them for their objections and they said no weightage should be given to the board exams; if at all, the board exam should be a filtering process and merit should only be given to an IIT exam. I accepted that. So we said okay to 50% for board exam and 50% for main exam.

Coomi Kapoor: You say you have consulted the IITs. But you?ve only consulted the IIT council, not the senates.

I told them at that meeting that we will take your recommendations into consideration but the final decision would be that of the council, not of the senates. I again called a meeting of the council and I said I?ll call the IIT council, the NIT council, the IIIT council. If there is one dissent, I will not move forward. It was unanimous. This includes all the directors of IITs, chairmen of NITs. Then the controversy came up that no, the senates will decide.

Pranab Dhal Samanta: One of the criticisms is that a lot of the students who do not have better access to education in the rural parts of the country study in these coaching institutes and give a shot at these examinations. Because they have multiple examinations, they have multiple chances of getting in somewhere or the other. But with the new system, everything will be dependent on just the school examination.

It is not going to be dependent on the school examination. School is an important exam. One country-one exam is a long-term objective, it can?t be achieved overnight. Incidentally, this proposal was put before all the state ministers and they unanimously adopted it. Maharashtra, Haryana and Gujarat are already on board for next year. It?s for state institutions to decide?they can give whatever weightage they want to give to the board and the main. Each state can decide how they want to do it. Brilliant students will always get in. The most brilliant rural children will always get in.

Swaraj Thapa: What is the date you are looking at for this single-exam system to start?

At the end of June, each state government has been requested to tell us when they will join. Some may join in 2014, some in 2015. We don?t know. But over the next two to three years, we will have one exam and we will have to deal with lakhs of students for that exam. We will have to be prepared for it.

Amitabh Sinha: There seems to be a disproportionate amount of time and effort being spent on fixing IITs and IIMs, when there are a lot of other things that require attention in the education sector.

We are not fixing anything in the IIT system. We are fixing an aberration in the examination. Incidentally, how they teach, what they teach, what manner they teach, how they pass their students, we have nothing to do with it. We are only talking here of children sitting for 30 different exams. It is time to fix an aberration so that children are not forced to sit for multiple exams. It happens nowhere in the world.

Amitabh Sinha: One of the objectives of this entire change is to give some weightage to the school examination. Why should IIT examination be responsible for strengthening your school examination? These are two different things.

Lakhs of students sit for the IIT exam hoping that they will get through. What if Harvard were to say that they do not bother about SAT results? We are also trying in the process to strengthen the education system, which is where people will rise from. If people start concentrating on their school boards and improve, it will work. We are doing a lot to strengthen the school system. Maybe five years from now, children will be allowed to take their textbooks inside the exam hall.

Kirtika Suneja: But the burden of class 12 boards and IITs remain. And coaching institutes say the competition will remain as intense. So what is changing?

There will be competition for any elite institution. There is nothing wrong with that. But if in the process, we can strengthen the school system, then it?s an added advantage.

Coomi Kapoor: If the competition remains the same, the coaching schools too will be inevitable.

I cannot speculate on whether coaching schools will be inevitable. These are market forces at play and I do not know how the children are going to react. But my effort here is to reduce the tension among parents and children by not having to sit for 30 exams. Will it not improve the school system a little bit? Will it not get girls into the IIT system? Will it be completely urban-centric? It won?t. The objective is not to reduce the competition. Competition is good for us, that will not be reduced. To some extent, the children will have to work both to ensure that their school board exams are good and their IIT exam results are also good. It?s a good thing.

Pranab Dhal Samanta: How do you repeat the exam, considering that it will factor in your class 12 marks?

We have said that you can take your existing class 12 marks and go for the exam. And if you don?t succeed the first year, you can take your existing class 12 board marks and sit the next year. If you want to improve the class 12 boards, you improve it next year. It is up to the child.

Naveed Iqbal: IIT-Delhi has said there should be a two-year gap (before this is implemented), as there is a batch of students who have given their 12th and have probably ignored their boards and another batch who dropped a year to study another year for IITs. Will that be taken into consideration?

First of all, the child should not be saying that I ignored my boards. But if the child thinks that he did, we are giving him a chance in 2013 to sit for the exam again.

Anubhuti Vishnoi: Talking about the cartoon controversy, do you think MPs should decide what should be there in textbooks?

MPs? inputs are valuable, their sentiments are relevant but ultimately, it is the academic community that decides.

Pranab Dhal Samanta: Many of these reforms are being implemented top-down.

Looking at the child and asking him what he wants to do is not top-down. If I give a child a vocational course, it is not a top-down approach, as every child may not or cannot become a doctor. It is about giving the child choices. The moment you expand the choices of the child, it?s is a bottom-up approach because a human being wants possibilities to do any and everything that he or she can do. If you give them those opportunities, it?s a bottom-up approach and what we are doing is expanding opportunities for children. The two-and-a-half-year consultation is a bottom-up approach.

Anubhuti Vishnoi: The two areas in higher education which you haven?t been able to fix are the deemed university problem and the selection and appointment of vice chancellors to universities or academic bodies like UGC.

But those are procedural issues. The deemed university issue is a court matter. I took the decision quickly and now it?s for the courts to take those judicial decisions.

Anubhuti Vishnoi: Do you still feel like a man who wants to effect a whole lot of reforms but is being stopped?

I have gone forward with a lot of reforms, nobody has stabbed me in the back so far.

Anisha Mathur: Is there any proposal to introduce a singular exam on the lines of SAT in medicine or humanities?

Ultimately, the objective is that each institution should not hold its own exam. If the private universities are asked to join the system, which they will have to eventually, then what will happen is that there will be an all-India merit list in that discipline, whether it is architecture, medicine or engineering. Then counselling will take place and the child will get the college he wants to choose, depending on his merit. You can?t have excellence with multiplicity and destroy careers of children.

Nandini Thilak: Entry to institutions like Delhi University is difficult as cut-offs go up every year despite the expansion of seats.

This is because of demand and supply. They always say that this sector is crying for investment and we need to bring more investment. The world is ready to invest in education in India, especially in vocational education and skill development, because the world needs a skilled workforce and the world does not have human resources, which is available in India. But India is not willing to accept foreign investment.

Anandita Singh Mankotia: There is a draft cabinet proposal on charging all telecom operators price similar to the auction price for the remaining period of their licence. What is the thinking behind it and was the opinion of the regulator sought in the matter?

We sought the opinion of the regulator in all issues. As you know, in the telecom sector, the regulator?s opinion is just an opinion and ultimately it?s the government that decides. So whatever we decide, we will take it to the cabinet.

Anandita Singh Mankotia: Do you think the spectrum reserve price is too steep?

This is something that the cabinet will decide. I cannot comment or give an opinion on that. Talking of reforms, the amount of work that has been done in the telecom sector now has never been done before. We are now sending to the cabinet the manufacturing policy and the IT policy. We have already adopted the telecom policy which gives us the roadmap for the next 20 years. Our larger perspective is that there is a great opportunity before us. There is a lot of criticism in the market and the international environment is not very positive. So we want to give a signal to the world that India should be a destination for investors to come in and invest.

Shekhar Gupta: So ideally, you want all operators to stay on in India?

Definitely. We want all operators to stay. This is a great opportunity for the government of India to send a signal to the international community that India should be a preferred destination for investment. And that?s why we need a clear roadmap in the context of the industry and not this operator or that operator.

Pranab Dhal Samanta: There has been the criticism that the environment for investors looking to invest in India has deteriorated. Would you, as a key minister, concede that the government has been responsible and has somewhat failed?

There are many other players in the field who have destroyed the investment sentiment in this country. The important thing is not to look back but to see that the way forward is encouraging for foreign investment to come in and liberalise the system.

DK Singh: Is it true that that Mulayam Singh Yadav has written to the finance ministry asking the existing players should not be made to pay the same spectrum fee as discovered during the proposed auctions?

It is true.

Dilip Bobb: What is this Obama-Singh knowledge initiative about?

It is a great initiative as it allows institutions to collaborate with each other. It allows joint projects, joint research. We are also going to send abut 300 faculty people to the US to get training in their higher institutions. The atmosphere in the US is that they are telling us, ?when would you like us to come?? and the atmosphere in India is, ?we will wait for some time?. This opportunity will not come to us again.

D K Singh: You had a rollercoaster ride with Mamata Banerjee. Now when she is expected to move out of the UPA, why are you so desperate to keep her in the flock?

The Trinamool Congress is an ally, and an ally is an ally.

Transcribed by Ruhi Bhasin and Ananya Bhardwaj

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First published on: 24-06-2012 at 01:46 IST
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